Podcast

A shit storm is swirling around Pope Benedict XVI. Dan read the story and just about lost his mind, and thinks that if it comes out that the Pope was complicit in the sweeping under the rug of the deeds of Father Murphy when he molested over 200 deaf boys, then the Catholic church is about to find itself in a free fall and will need God Himself to save it.

Jane read the story and said “Yep. Sounds like a Tuesday.”

Have a listen. What do you think?

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Jane says…

Aren’t they? They emerge from the womb without any beliefs or expectations about religion. It’s only when they are old enough to begin to regurgitate whatever adults tell them that they begin to express religious “beliefs.” And really, if we’re being honest about it, it’s only until children develop the capacity for abstract thought, according to Piaget this occurs at around age 12, that they can actually grasp religion in the manner in which it is meant to be grasped. That might be the most awkward sentence I’ve ever written, but oh well. Religion makes me feel awkward.

Lots of adults argue that children should be raised in a specific religious tradition. Occasionally, this works out well for everybody. Most of the time? It’s an exercise in delusion and hypocrisy.

When both parents share the same faith to the same degree and are moved to practice that faith in the same manner, they often choose to raise their children in the same tradition. Their kids learn what they believe, the kids go to the same place of worship that their parents do, and they generally practice the same faith that their parents do until they get to college and rebel by becoming Jehovah’s Witnesses or Moonies or Atheists.

More often, it seems to me, parents feel that they need to raise their children according to a religious tradition that one or both parents feel they should be passing along. Yet one or both of those parents neither fully practices, or in some cases even believes, in that religion. Excellent. Way to teach hypocrisy. How many people do you know hated going to church on Sundays, hated CCD, stopped going to church as soon as they had the option, and yet make their kids jump through the same hoops?

How many couples of different faiths do you know who have chosen one religion over the other in terms of how the kids are being raised. Yet they still sometimes acknowledge the other faith. And even practice some of the traditions. How confusing is that? For lots of religions, it’s even blasphemous. Which is, to me, beside the point because I don’t believe that there’s such a thing as blasphemy, unless you call George Clooney ugly in which case you’re going to burn in the deepest depths of the hell I don’t believe in. How do you explain to your kids why you chose the one you did?

The argument I hear most often from parents who don’t practice religion (or who do) but who feel that it’s important to raise their children with religion is that traditions and the “culture” are important to carry on. I also hear quite a bit about how the grandparents would soil themselves and possibly cut off any future inheritance if the grandchildren aren’t raised they way they raised their kids. So what? You’re teaching your kid something you don’t fully embrace or live for money? Or because you’re afraid of getting grounded? What?

The tradition argument doesn’t wash with me. We’ve got tons of traditions at my house. Lots of them look pretty much like religious traditions. In fact, my kids even say a form of grace, one they learned at the Jewish Preschool, or the one my daughter learned at her Presbyterian preschool – either one, whatever. It doesn’t matter which, because “Thanks for this food” is about as religious as we get around here. We light a candle at the dinner table to signal that it’s time to eat. We blow the candle out to signal that dinner is over. We talk about the “best part of your day.” We always have pancakes on Sunday morning. We discuss and share in decisions about acts of kindness and charity. We, ok, I drink wine and eat crackers. We work together, as a family, to decide how to be good neighbors. Why are these traditions any less valuable than those that occur in a special building, sitting on a hard seat, listening to somebody tell you what to believe before you even know who you are or even HOW to believe?

I asked my 8 year old today whether he thought it would be better to go to one church and learn a lot about a particular religion or decide for oneself. He said he’d rather learn about all the choices for religion and then decide if any work for him.

That’s my boy!

…but Dan thinks…

Jane, you ignorant heathen. I’m not sure how many couples and families you polled for this post, but I’m betting it’s way less than you make it appear when you say things like “More often…parents feel that they need to raise their children according to a religious tradition…” But for the sake of argument, which is what we’re here for, I’ll play along.

So religion is the big hypocrisy maker, huh? Parents teach their children about a faith they have no faith in themselves.

Just like they tell their kids not to eat too much ice cream, then polish off the Ben & Jerry’s as soon as the kids go to bed.

Or they tell them to be kind to others, just before they flip the bird and scream “MOTHERFUCKER!” at the driver that just cut them off.

Jane, your examples show what I believe, too – the hypocrisy is in the parent. Not the religion. The parents not making the effort or taking the time to find a religion they can get behind is not the fault of the religion. Do you have life insurance, Jane? Is it the insurance company’s fault if you don’t? Do you have a will? Are your kids at fault if they go into foster care because you didn’t have one?

Since humans began walking erect they’ve been asking the “big” questions. How did Britney lose all that weight? How many licks does it take to get to the middle of a Tootsie Roll Tootsie Pop? Why are we here? Are there others like us out there in the universe?

I think the problem today is that the first two questions have become way more important to parents than the last two. Searching for the meaning of life and how we fit into it is a worthy endeavor, and one I recommend everyone take on at least once in their lives. And religion is one no-brainer place to start on that search. It may not end there, but one of the primary purposes of religion is to ask and try to answer all of life’s big questions. Why not seek it’s counsel?

I don’t think by and large parents practice a faith for monetary reasons. Or if they do, it must only be in the blueblood circles Jane runs in. Nobody I know has family with enough money to affect religious choice. I think they do it because it’s what they know, and it’s easier to just go with the flow. They also probably think there are a few legit reasons to be in favor of most organized religions, so why not expose the kids to it and hope some of it sinks in?

Ultimately I think religion is about teaching its followers how to live a moral life. How to be good to each other. And truth be told, the examples Jane gives are really nice. And I have firsthand knowledge of how good her family, her kids are. Knowledge she’d prefer you not know, because she believes in doing good for the sake of goodness, not for the sake of public relations. In that respect, she probably lives a more moral, principled life than a lot of the Catholics I used to go to church with do. And she teaches those morals, those principles to her kids. But she’s a teacher. She should kinda be great at that, shouldn’t she?

And then there’s the whole creationism thing. I think a religion’s inability to have some flexibility when new scientific discoveries are made will ultimately spell that religion’s demise. Duggars, I’m looking at you.

There’s also the afterlife thing. This might be one of the other reasons people are sheep, just going where the herd goes, practicing the faith their parents practiced. You’d hate to fuck up and miss your shot at heaven all because you didn’t go to church on Sundays. Eternity’s a long friggin’ time. I think those people are missing the point, as Jane might be a little.

But I love onions. And I loved the parable about the guy going to heaven, pulled from hell on an onion held by a gossamer thread. Saved, all because he’d given someone an onion once. Jane? I’ll totally throw you an onion when the time comes. Or maybe a crutch.

…and Jane’s having none of that…

Yes, I believe it’s true that hypocrisy is in the parent.. do as I say, not as I do. Without giving ourselves leave to be the occasional hypocrite, and without the Ben and Jerry’s, we’d all be pretty miserable.

And though my issue here is with parents raising their kids with religion and not so much the religion itself, I’ll address your point about hypocrisy lying with the parents and not the religion.

Dan, you are a pathetic sheep. Show me an organized religion and I’ll show you hypocrisy.

There. It’s addressed.

I believe that it is absolutely a parent’s responsiblity to help his/her children navigate the tricky waters of those big existential questions. But I also think it’s just as much a parent’s responsibility to think critically – about everything – the big questions and the small questions. But a moral compass and a sense of belonging in the universe isn’t authentic unless it comes from within. When a child is old enough to understand what he/she is being taught by a religion, any religion is an excellent place to explore those questions. Until the child is old enough? It’s not exploration, it’s not critical thinking, it’s just conformism.

p.s. And Dan, speaking of ignorant, maybe you should spend less time on your knees and more time studying. “It’s” means “it is” not
“belonging to it.” For the hundredth time.

Dan’s final word…

Until the child is old enough?

Didn’t your kids start asking questions long before Piaget’s recommendation of 12? Have you been telling them “You aren’t ready for those answers yet, sweetie. Wait until you’re twelve and I’ll tell you.” My 5 year old daughter has been asking the big questions for a couple years now, like “are there people on other planets?” “How was the Earth made?” “What happens when we die? Does someone else take our place?”

Isn’t it our job as parents to explain, as best we can, how we believe the universe works, why the water swirls clockwise in the toilet when we flush, and who Jane’s kids are thanking when they say grace at the dinner table?

And until they develop their own moral compass, do you just let them beat the shit out of other kids until they’re old enough to go to juvenile detention decipher right and wrong on their own? God, I hope not. Right now my kids receive their moral compass from my wife and me, and I’m sure some part of the lessons we teach are derivatives of lessons we were taught in church.

That the lesson comes from the big building with the cross atop it doesn’t necessarily invalidate the lesson.

But raising my kids is not God’s job. It’s mine. Just like it’s my job to teach them to be free thinkers, despite some church’s (and Jane’s) claim to the contrary. And when they grow up, if they decide they want to change religions? Turn away from any and all church completely? That’ll be their decision to make. I’m not a crusader. But in the meantime, I’m going to teach them what I think. What I believe. And that’ll include my thoughts on God.

Oh, and Jane? One thing I’ve learned over the years. You never, EVER go grammar police on someone else, because it’s a near-certainty that somewhere in the very note you’re pronouncing yourself grammatically holier than thou? You screw up. It’s your responsiBILITY to know better, especially given your occupation.

If you wanna kiss the sky, better learn how to kneel. ~Bono